Other Guidelines

The underlined text is link to the forum discussion that was majority approved. I just don't know if I got the gist and wording right.

RSG §2.1.7
B) An alias is created when changing and/or abandoning the PAN surname or identity.
D) Replace June Carter Cash with: Free Text Field
Still a work in progress in the forums
RSG §6.1.7. It is beneficial that the most important distinguishing feature be noted on releases that appear identical in the master release. For instance, the label color, vinyl color, pressing plant.

When editions have multiple vinyl colors:
If the marketing term does not include the color, use: Blue [Cloudy Skies]
If there is no marketing term available, use: Blue Transparent
If the marketing term includes the color, use: Cloudy Blue Skies

Capitalization Musical Keys
RSG §1.2.2. Exceptions:
1.2.2. F (new) Musical keys can be entered as they appear on the release when capitalization is used to differentiate between minor and major keys.

UK & Europe vs Europe
7.1.4. (new) If a release is distributed in Europe, AND the release explicitly calls out the UK as a region (for example, "Distributed in Europe and the UK by etc etc"), then and only then use the "UK and Europe" tag.

Worldwide
7.1.5. (new) The country option “Worldwide” should be used when specifically marketed as Worldwide and/or available for domestic release around the world. This is primarily concerning post 2010 releases and/or file releases.

An XYZ Production
10.2.7.3. (new) Companies listed as “An XYZ Production” can be given a “Record Company” role.
Or a new "Production Company" LCCN credit
Or revise description of "Produced For" to allow those companies

URL /= separate brand
4.3.7. (new) URL/domain name does not always equal a separate company name. It can be considered equivalent to an 'ANV' of the company. The chosen company name should be the one most often used on releases.
Exceptions:
1. The domain name differs too much from the company name to be a variation.
2. The name and the URL are distinct entities, different locations or different processes.

RSG §6.12.2. Promo
Any item labelled as being issued to promote a retail release. Change first sentence to remove "Advance"

BAOI data & descriptions
RSG §5.2.c. Change grey area to:
A release may have minor differences in the runout string that does not qualify for a unique submission. This information may be added to the release page that best matches it as variant data. When entering this information into the BaOI section, please add the full set of data as a cluster, including redundant data (i.e., all sides).

If a cluster of BaOI data already exists, it will need to have '(Variant 1)' appended to the end of the free text field description and the new data entered as '(Variant 2)'. Additional data clusters will need to be sequentially numbered, and cannot be changed, once added.

Free-Text-Field descriptions should be uniform between variants. The descriptor format set by the original submitter should be followed if it is adequate enough to describe the location of the data.

Incomplete or incorrectly added BaOI data can be removed after a period of 14 days if the contributor is not able to or correct the variant data added. Existing subsequent data clusters should not be renumbered to backfill vacated numbers. Those numbers can be backfilled by new entries, though.

Example: Watching The Wheels
Example: ______________

See Credits List
... A) If an Artist name is printed on the release and is not the main artist or tied to a specific credit role use a generic role (Performer, Instruments, Accompanied By). Example: Loving You Vol.1
... B) If an Artist name is printed on the release and no information can be found for the role, use unlinked "Other". Example: Live Drugs Again
... C) Main artist(s) and track artist(s) should only be given a “credit” if it is explicitly printed on the release. Example: Blues Changes
... D) For classical releases it is acceptable to give a composer credit even if not explicitly printed.
... E) Multiple credits can be chosen for a single artist. (for example: Written-By, Vocals, Guitar, Keyboards).

Christmas (Baby, Please Come Home) / Harry And Milt Meet Hal B.

https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/1120413
Unknown if musical, staff, friends ........ Use "Other" - non linked, unknown role.

TopCats45s
RSG §2.1.7
B) An alias is created when changing or abandoning the PAN surname or identity.
D) Replace June Carter Cash with: The Jackson Five = The Jacksons

Just one minor point: replace The Jackson Five with The Jackson 5.

TopCats45s
Free Text Field
RSG §6.1.7. It is beneficial that the most important distinguishing feature be noted on releases that appear identical in the master release. For instance, the label color, vinyl color, pressing plant. Editions with multiple vinyl colors: If available use the marketing description for that release, otherwise describe the color as best you can with the color group first (i.e., Blue transparent)

I would advocate being as clear as possible here. Could we provide a couple examples of preferred format, and maybe even a list of sanctioned abbreviations?

TopCats45s
Capitalization Musical Keys
RSG §1.2.2. Exceptions:
1.2.2. F (new) Musical keys can be entered as they appear on the release when capitalization is used to differentiate between minor and major keys.

I 100% agree with this!

TopCats45s
UK & Europe vs Europe
7.1.4. (new) If a release is distributed in Europe, AND the release explicitly calls out the UK as a region (for example, "Distributed in Europe and the UK by etc etc"), then and only then use the "UK and Europe" tag.

Worldwide
7.1.5. (new) The country option “Worldwide” should only be used when specifically marketed as worldwide and/or available for release around the world. This is primarily concerning post 2010 releases and/or file releases.

Yes, absolutely.

TopCats45s
An XYZ Production
10.2.7.3. (new) Companies listed as “An XYZ Production” can be given a “Record Company” role.

Why would or wouldn't Produced For work? I would like to better understand this. I think we're overdue is well for a final ruling on what to do with logos that don't have obvious roles. Should those be labels or record companies? As an example, see Boston Symphony Orchestra, Serge Koussevitzky - Cowell*, Hanson*, Mozart*, Shostakovich*, Strauss*, Tchaikovsky* - Salute To Symphony 1989 (The Boston Symphony Orchestra In Historic Performances Conducted By Serge Koussevitzky)

TopCats45s
Free Text Field
RSG §6.1.7. It is beneficial that the most important distinguishing feature be noted on releases that appear identical in the master release. For instance, the label color, vinyl color, pressing plant. Editions with multiple vinyl colors: If available use the marketing description for that release, otherwise describe the color as best you can with the color group first (i.e., Blue transparent)

For what it's worth, if we do ever get the long-desired Packaging field(s), color should be part of that, which would help reduce the clogging up of the FTF.

Cousin_Mosquito
Why would or wouldn't Produced For work?

You'd have to read all the threads. There are many. Type in "An XYZ Production". Apparently, sometimes that does not mean Producer or Produced For. Of course, sometimes it does ...... But?

Logos? I don't have the expertise for that one. And so far every single forum discussion says if the logo represents a label - then it's a label. If it's just artwork or a TM, ignore/notes.

Format examples - yeah for sure. I love examples - just seem to always draw a blank when I go looking, LOL.

Cousin_Mosquito
I think we're overdue is well for a final ruling on what to do with logos that don't have obvious roles.

I would think that would just be an artist "trademark" on that BSO example. Forum discussion needed. There are others. Can't all off hand, but (Please Don't) Talk Behind My Back.

TopCats45s
An XYZ Production
10.2.7.3. (new) Companies listed as “An XYZ Production” can be given a “Record Company” role.

A very recent discussion here that established different scenarios:
https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/1083398?page=1&message_id=11220604#11199713
Perhaps a bit too convoluted for a guideline update but the broad understanding here is that "An XYZ Production" is generally to to be considered not a company name. "XYZ" is the focal entity in that statement.

Separately, ideally a Production Company (or in the least "Other") role could be added to RSG §4.6.2. to capture such anomalies.

TopCats45s
Price Codes
RSG §5.2.g. Price Code is an identifier assigned to determine the price of an audio carrier. Price codes can appear in various kinds, e.g. two letters and three digits (BA100, PM 500), circled letters (Ⓐ or Ⓦ), as "series" (Serie Azul, Série Artistique), 1 or 2 letters (M, AC), 2 or more digits, often after a dash (-213, 0812), etc. This can also be the MSRP (Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price) printed on the release.

U.S./Canada releases often printed a four-digit code on the spine (0698 or X698) - perhaps add as an example too?

For consideration:
Price Code is an identifier assigned to determine the price of an audio carrier. Price codes can appear in various kinds forms, e.g., two letters and three digits (BA100, PM 500), circled letters (Ⓐ or Ⓦ), as "series" (Serie Azul, Série Artistique), as a classification (DELUXE), one or two letters (M, AC), two or more digits, often after a dash (-213, 0812), in a value form (0698, 0898), etc. This can also be the MSRP (Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price) printed on the release (e.g., $4.98, ¥10,000).

TopCats45s
Free-Text-Field descriptions should be uniform between versions. The descriptor format set by the original submitter should be followed if it is adequate enough to describe the location of the data.

Considering this went over 26 pages:
https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/910405
Without consensus, I would be afraid of trying to enshrine this!

I'm still of the belief that a functional change to the BaOI dropdowns to give dedicated fields for the very distinct types of matrix data could do away with a lot of the temptation for preference edits here:
https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/910405?page=24#9883268

TopCats45s
uniform between versions.

What is being termed a "version" here? The guidelines generally define "version" as a unique release:
RSG §1.4.1.
RSG §1.5.1.
https://.discogs.sitioby.com/hc/en-us/articles/11311682608909-How-To-Add-A-Unique-Version-To-A-Master-Release
etc.

A "version" of a runout variant is generally considered to be termed a "variant," not a "version."
Though of course that gets met with disagreement too.

TopCats45s
If a cluster of BaOI data already exists, it will need to have '(Variant 1)' appended to the end of the free text field description and the new data entered as '(Variant 2)'. Additional data clusters will need to be sequentially numbered, and cannot be changed, once added.

As was stated by staff:
https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/741352?message_id=7562427#7584677
Though ideally we can follow RSG §1.2.1. here, as well as provide an example.

When adding runout variants to a release, please name original set as "variant 1" and the new set as "variant 2"; e.g.:

Side A runout, variant 1
Side B runout, variant 1
Side A runout, variant 2
Side B runout, variant 2

TopCats45s
please add the full set of data as a cluster, including redundant data.

Obviously BaOI takes more than vinyl data, but this often manifests with two-sided media, where a states that if one side is the same as another, they can just add the "unique" side. So I wonder if this statement can somehow specify here without getting too in the weeds?

When entering runout-derived data into the BaOI section, please add the full set of data for the release as a cluster, including redundant data (i.e., all sides).

or

When entering runout-derived data into the BaOI section, please add the full set of data for the release. For double-sided media, please enter all runout data for the release as a cluster, even if some sides are the same as a different variant entry.

j_lit
Perhaps a bit too convoluted for a guideline update

Reading that thread made my head hurt, LOL. I think I understand where you are coming from. If there are 100's of releases that literally state "An XYZ Production" I think that needs to be taken into consideration. After all - "as on release" is pretty big around here. The conclusion of that thread was still to use "record co" untill/unless DTF can add an "Other". Right? So it's just the name of that company that you question. And that would be case by case if I read your thread right?

j_lit
For consideration

I await other s comments on that - price codes are way out of my field of expertise.

j_lit
Free-Text-Field descriptions

Will change the word version to variant. All the rest is almost copy/paste from DTF's post.

PS The underlined text (for instance BAOI data & descriptions) is the link to the forum discussion I read when putting this together (except the first one).

Forum Thread #1123239 is a current consensus on Free Text Field, to use marketing description.

Fixed Artist Credits & Credit Roles and Price codes as suggested.

j_lit
provide an example

Anyone have an example handy for a CD or multi record release?
I'm adding a good one for a single.

j_lit provide an example

Anyone have an example handy for a CD or multi record release?
I'm adding a good one for a single.

Sure, but sorry, what RSG component was this in reference to?

TopCats45s
Forum Thread #1123239 is a current consensus on Free Text Field, to use marketing description.

Probably more of https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/1002734

But if 6.1. is GOING to get modified, perhaps it's time to formalize the long established:
Manufacturers can be in the free text field (via the former Undocumented wiki), if it's not opening a can of worms?

(Unlike this, which was a can of worms: Guideline change proposal – Format (gatefold-type packaging)

j_lit
what RSG component

BAOI data & descriptions

I've got lots of pet peeves too! The reason for the guideline update on the FTF was to address the fact that we have more than 3 characters showing - but the RSG says only 3. So, don't have consider display of Blu, Ora, etc. That's an "easy" fix compared to making a list of acceptable "significant differentiating factor between releases". That could run pages long! I wouldn't even know where to start. I really really don't want to go down that rabbit hole.

TopCats45s
otherwise describe the color as best you can with the color group first (i.e., Blue transparent)

Is there a good reason why the color group should still be listed first?

I would also like to see the bracket option kept & noted in the guidelines - fine with Marketing Description [Actual Color(s)] - for cases when the marketing description does not describe the color well. But this probably also depends on the end result of the thread.

TopCats45s
10.7.1. An Artist not credited on the release can only be added under certain circumstances. The (credible) source must be stated in the Submission Notes, and the credit must be labeled with [Uncredited] in brackets after the credit role. If other text is used in the credit brackets, the 'Uncredited' must have a comma separating it from the other text. Example: Christmas (Baby, Please Come Home) / Harry And Milt Meet Hal B.

This is maybe slightly unrelated, but is it anywhere in the guidelines whether or not ANVs should be used for [Uncredited] credits?

At first glance, everything else seems okay... I might have some thoughts on the Worldwide part, but I need to see if I can finally finish reading the thread.

auboisdormant
also depends on the end result of the thread

Yeah, I see it's still on-going and Diognes_The_Fox has added "I don't want to have to open a dozen different tabs to figure out what Magical Unicorn even means. The goal of Color [Marketing Term] is to make identification easier." So, we'll see how it plays out I guess.
Color [Marketing] = Blue [Cloudy Skies]
Color no marketing = Blue Transparent
Marketing includes color = Cloudy Blue Skies

auboisdormant
thoughts on the Worldwide part

Yeah, that one is difficult and I know I don't have it written correct. It does need to be addressed though. I'm waiting for Opdiner to in too as he's quite familiar with worldwide "stuff".

auboisdormant
anywhere in the guidelines whether or not ANVs should be used for [Uncredited] credits?

If it's not credited (in print) ... there would be no need for an ANV would there?

I’ll try to have a crack at the worldwide later. It needs to be written so that it’s flexible enough to be inclusive of all those major label worldwide editions, explain to people that worldwide does not mean it needs to be in every shop in every country and yet ensure that releases from labels that just service international mail order or third party orders from a domestic base in their own country are not deemed worldwide.

Opdiner
I’ll try

Thanks Simon!

TopCats45s
7.1.5. (new) The country option “Worldwide” should be used when specifically marketed as Worldwide and/or available for release around the world. This is primarily concerning post 2010 releases and/or file releases.

This is actually pretty good, although I’d suggest adding the word ‘domestic’ before ‘release around the world’.

Edit: We also had a broad consensus in a thread. See https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/1061807?message_id=10961996&page=3#10989707

Worldwide covers the most territory, and comes the closest - in most people's opinions in this thread - to advertising the true intent of this release; and possibly many others.

.

Effectively, we have consensus aside from two very loud voices (the usual ones who battle consensus), who refuse to accept and feel the need to relitigate in thread after thread volumously.

Here's an ancient ruling that we adhere to mostly and the guideline does say that but not clearly.

https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/233124?page=1&message_id=2864048#2863759

nik
The catalog number belongs primarily to the release itself. Whatever entities (labels) the catalog number appears to fit is of secondary importance. We can draw conclusions, especially in this case where the catalog number fits the cat# scheme of one label and not the other one, bit I feel what we end up doing is trying to tidy up a mess left because the artwork / layout of the release is left to be ambiguous and / or the label/s have made an error by not stating a catalog number on the release itself.

If there is confirmation from the label that there is an additional catalog number that 'belongs' to one of the labels involved, that was left off the release by accident, this can be added when confirmed because it is adding information.

As it stands, however, the catalog number for SOM is not 'none', because a catalog number does exist on the release. I agree that this type of direct linking could be improved, and I am working on that right now, but for the moment, the cat# should be repeated.

We reached an agreement on a revised RSG §4.7.2. years ago but it was never implemented. Why? (And I'd need to hunt for the thread but DTF agreed and then zip).

One more:

RSG §5.2.g. Price Code is an identifier assigned to determine the price of an audio carrier. Price codes can appear in various kinds, e.g. two letters and three digits (BA100, PM 500), circled letters (Ⓐ or Ⓦ), as "series" (Serie Azul, Série Artistique), 1 or 2 letters (M, AC), 2 or more digits, often after a dash (-213, 0812), etc.

Brent has ruled multiple times that prices themselves can go in there. You can argue (and many have) that $2 is a code anyway, and most accept that a price goes in this field but it should be in the guidelines.

Opdiner
pretty good ............ ‘domestic’

Thanks Simon and done!

Opdiner
hunt for the thread

I too will do a search for threads involving labels. With both you and Cousin_Mosquito bringing this up - will add to my list of guidelines to review next round.

Opdiner
it should be in the guidelines

I think we all here agree with price codes :)

TopCats45s
Thanks Simon and done!

The key here is an acceptance that major record companies - WMG, UMG, Sony, BMG and a couple of the really big indies like Domino and Beggars Group do this by default, and it needs to be understood as such if the country is to remain as the intended domestic market. For those entities worldwide is really the default unless there is a good reason not to mark it that, like a local edition for a chain etc.

Opdiner
The key here

Maybe this could be clearer then if:
7.1.5. (new) The country option “Worldwide” should be used when specifically marketed as Worldwide and/or intended for domestic release around the world. This is primarily concerning post 2010 releases, and/or file releases, and/or major record companies.

Updated Free Text Field above with Brent's advice in the newest thread. Thoughts?
Also, personally when there are multiple colors I think it would be beneficial to allow Black as one of them. But, that's me :)

TopCats45s
If it's not credited (in print) ... there would be no need for an ANV would there?

You'd think so, but they are a pretty common occurrence.

Some fairly recent submissions:
Viens Danser Le Twist

(Note that they are all copy-to-draft subs, and almost all of the original subs have the ANVs too)

TopCats45s
Updated Free Text Field above with Brent's advice in the newest thread. Thoughts?

So, was there are a reason why it still should be "Blue Transparent" and not "Transparent Blue"? ;-)

But otherwise it's good. I think having examples is particularly good, and hopefully enough to prevent folks from reversing the order of words in actual color names, for example "Baby Blue" to "Blue Baby".

TopCats45s
Also, personally when there are multiple colors I think it would be beneficial to allow Black as one of them. But, that's me :)

And me. :-)

I'm in general against the "invisible" standards that Discogs has. You know, the things that you can't mention in a submission because they are allegedly such obvious standards that everyone knows them and assumes them to apply if they are not mentioned anywhere. These include black vinyl, jewel case, lossless file quality, what LP means... but I know that's a minority opinion.

auboisdormant
pretty common occurrence

Good grief - That's unreal. I mean ... why??? That's just .... wrong. Maybe the first rule of this data base needs to be in big huge red bold "Use common sense!!"

auboisdormant
"Blue Transparent" and not "Transparent Blue"

It seemed to be a tie on the preference. So, I went with Brent being the tie-breaker.

Going to start chipping away at these.

TopCats45s
B) An alias is created when changing and/or abandoning the PAN surname or identity.

how about:

Aliases are used to link together two or more artist names that differ more than the minor variances covered by artist name variations (ANV's).

TopCats45s
D) Replace June Carter Cash with: The Jackson 5 = The Jacksons

done! https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/356624?page=2&message_id=11655586#11655586

Diognes_The_Fox
Aliases are used to link together two or more artist names that differ more than the minor variances covered by artist name variations (ANV's).

That may work better. It does take the word "surname" completely out of the guidelines, is that the intent?

Edit & PS - thanks for moving June out of there!

2nd Edit & PS - for those just now coming on board. June Carter Cash. People have misinterpreted why that (was) an example. When we first decided on that example, in the data base she ALWAYS went by Carter Cash after her marriage. Oops. Within the last year the "group" Johnny Cash-June Carter was split. So, all those June Carters popped up for after marriage. So really bad example there.

And, no I don't know if they should merge. Likely not.

Oh yeah, good point. Does this work?

Aliases are used to link together two or more artist names that differ more than the minor variances covered by artist name variations (ANV's). Aliases are also used for purposefully intended changes by the artist, such as changes in surname or identity.

Diognes_The_Fox
Aliases are used to link together two or more artist names that differ more than the minor variances covered by artist name variations (ANV's).

Wait. That's basically what the first lines of that section say. Part B deals with partial changes, true surname change, identity change. Spells out specifics. Katy Hudson - Katy Perry

Bear with me. I somehow swapped A and B in my head between your post and reading the actual guideline.

Unless we want to do A too. Today is being a day.

A (if we're up for it):

Aliases are used to link together two or more artist names that differ more than the minor variances covered by artist name variations (ANV's).

B

Aliases are also used for purposefully intended changes by the artist, such as changes in surname or identity.

LOL, I been there done that :) Set aside and talk tomorrow. But part B could spell out more effectively why it's okay for Maria Callas = Maria Meneghini Callas or Sharon Arms Doucet = Sharon Arms. When they didn't abandon the original surname.

TopCats45s
Capitalization Musical Keys
RSG §1.2.2. Exceptions:
1.2.2. F (new) Musical keys can be entered as they appear on the release when capitalization is used to differentiate between minor and major keys.

Thank you for including this exception.

Diognes_The_Fox
A (if we're up for it):

Aliases are used to link together two or more artist names that differ more than the minor variances covered by artist name variations (ANV's).

B

Aliases are also used for purposefully intended changes by the artist, such as changes in surname or identity.

This looks pretty good to me. Brief and to the point.