Morrissey and Steven Morrissey PAN merge

Rule Morrissey, I am aware that this was added in the (not that) recent database guidelines updates but it puzzles me that by the relevance of this example been clearly stated in the guidelines this merge has not been made already, is there is something I am missing?

My proposal for the merge would be, all releases in PAN Morrissey, and create a new PAN "Steven Patrick" for this 2 releases:
- The Durutti Column - Vini Reilly
- Vincent Gerard* & Steven Patrick* - I Know Very Well How I Got My Note Wrong
Since "Steven Patrick" is not derived nor related to the PAN Morrissey

Will invite some people already involved in the history of the profiles and aliases for Morrissey:
IGOTMIXOMATOSIS

On Steven Morrissey's page, it says 'Something went wrong in this section of the page.'
Does that mean this page is empty?

princeofeville
Since "Steven Patrick" is not derived nor related to the PAN Morrissey

Even though the whole PAN / Alias / ANV guidelines have become messy and almost unworkable, how can Steven Patrick not be derived from Steven Patrick Morrissey?

So, instead of creating yet another PAN for a Morrissey name variant, it should rather be discussed if:
a) Steven Morrissey is an ANV of Morrissey, acc. RSG §2.5.2: An ANV must be directly related or recognizable as derived from the PAN (Surname). As you stated, the example is explicit. So, strictly speaking, move everything under Morrissey with ANV.
b) Morrissey is an ANV of Steven Morrissey (acc. RSG §2.1.7 C) An alias is created for an Artist with a mononym PAN when surname-only credits exist, e.g. Morrissey = Steven Morrissey with ANV: Morrissey. (Works for Prince so why not for Morrissey?)
c) both, Morrissey and Steven Morrissey are valid PAN, to distingish the stage PAN from the non-performing PAN (if that is possible / makes sense).

valparaiso
On Steven Morrissey's page, it says 'Something went wrong in this section of the page.' Does that mean this page is empty?

Yet another Discogs bug. Most of the ANVs thereunder still work.

sebfact
how can Steven Patrick not be derived from Steven Patrick Morrissey?

The PAN is Morrissey.

The discussions about Mononym PANs and its ANV have been always been a constant issue, but in this specific case the issue is that the guidelines have a definitive outcome (- Surname: (example: ANV: Steven Morrisey = PAN: Morrissey)), this must have been discussed previously since Morrissey is a very relevant artist and if was used as an explicit example in the guidelines that people are constantly referring to justify other merges.

sebfact
Morrissey and Steven Morrissey are valid PAN, to distingish the stage PAN from the non-performing PAN (if that is possible / makes sense).

This.

Much like Cher (stage name) and Cherilyn Sarkisian (birth name), Morrissey (stage name) and Steven Patrick Morrissey (birth name) should be treated as distinct.

MJG196
Much like Cher (stage name) and Cherilyn Sarkisian (birth name), Morrissey (stage name) and Steven Patrick Morrissey (birth name) should be treated as distinct.

I suppose that that also goes for Syreeta Wright ??

MJG196
Much like Cher (stage name) and Cherilyn Sarkisian (birth name), Morrissey (stage name) and Steven Patrick Morrissey (birth name) should be treated as distinct.

The Cher example goes in accordance with the current rule and examples for alias in RSG §2.1.7
I understand and used this rule previous to the guidelines update, but again this would mean that the example(Steven Morrisey = PAN: Morrissey) in the current guidelines Steven Morrissey for ANV Steven Patrick

One has to be very narrow-minded not to derive Steven Patrick from Steven Patrick Morrissey, even when Morrissey would be the only PAN. The RSG are not replacing common sense. They are not biblical either.

Coincidence_vs_Fate
One has to be very narrow-minded not to derive Steven Patrick from Steven Patrick Morrissey.

Currently there is no PAN "Steven Patrick Morrissey", the two PANs are Steven Morrissey (Real Name)
To which PAN would you add "Steven Patrick Morrissey" as an ANV?
To which PAN would you add "Steven Patrick" as an ANV?

princeofeville
My proposal for the merge would be, all releases in PAN Steven Morrissey be added as ANV to PAN Morrissey, and create a new PAN "Steven Patrick"

the other solution could be:
merge everything to Steven Morrissey and don't create anything new

Jesus wept…
+1 for all to PAN Morrissey

Coincidence_vs_Fate
The RSG are not replacing common sense. They are not biblical either.

Yes indeed - to quote Staff, "It is important that the guidelines are seen as a little bit flexible (otherwise, they would be called rules)."

I think yet another PAN, for "Stephen Patrick" (which would have only 5 releases), seems unnecessary.

The main reason to start this thread was because https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/release/407317-Vini-Reilly/history?diff=29&page=1
where he changed PAN Steven Morrissey is a valid PAN it houses all ANVs containing "Steven" regardless of the credit in which appears.

IronyChef
I think yet another PAN, for "Stephen Patrick" (which would have only 5 releases), seems unnecessary.

I suggested creating a new PAN "Stephen Patrick" ONLY if Morrissey PAN, since "Stephen Patrick" would be the only ANV not containing the surname "Morrissey"

Morrissey.

princeofeville
this statement is making people separate PANs for specific credits and was added(without any discussion to back it up) to the profile, I already explained in the release comments that you can't separate PANs to use them only for specific credits/roles

This is an assertion rather than an explanation, but in any case, why not start with a discussion of having that removed if you feel strongly about it? It's been in the profile for 4 years and I followed it sincerely.

(I'm finding this topic enervating, to humo[u]rously use a term recently applied elsewhere toward me :-)

IronyChef
I don't think there is a reason to feel "enervating" I have not been rude or have not refer to you in any direct or personal way, I only try to explain to you why your edit was wrong so you could revert it, when I could have just change it myself but it did not seem that you got convinced of my explanation so I felt I had to bring this issue to a further discussion, but I think it should be clear that PANs shouldn't be separate for specific credits in any case so this mistake is not repeated again, I even recommended you to check how all other ANV are separated in Steven Morrissey

princeofeville
Sigh. I have not accused you of anything - certainly not of being rude or any other personal attack.
That was a disposable remark, an attempt at self-deprecating humor; I am just tired of the topic - nothing to do with you. If you like, I'll edit to remove it.
And: the subject seems not in fact to be perfectly well-defined, given the discussion that's taking place here.

We are talking about a handful of releases (with likely no further additions) where it's 100% clear and fully documented who Steven Patrick is and where the connection to Morrissey is. Even here on Discogs, by simply looking up the "Real Name" in the Morrissey profile. You just need to make an effort.

Creating another PAN in this case (understood?) would be splitting a PAN because of "rules" (nik has also stated -repetitively- that the RSG should guide us but not force us to do something.

IronyChef
princeofeville
I'll edit to remove it.

Yes, I think it would be the best approach to revert it as it was previously(PAN Steven Morrissey ANV Steven Patrick) or if you still have doubts or concerns we can start another thread, thanks

princeofeville
I think it would be the best approach to revert it

You've misunderstood; I meant that I could remove my attempt at humor that was in no way meant as criticism of your writing. (I'm done here for now; the workday has begun.)

sebfact
We are talking about a handful of releases (with likely no further additions) where it's 100% clear and fully documented who Steven Patrick is and where the connection to Morrissey is. Even here on Discogs, by simply looking up the "Real Name" in the Morrissey profile. You just need to make an effort.

Creating another PAN in this case (understood?) would be splitting a PAN because of "rules" (which aren't even ones), but without adding any value and lacking common sense. Merely a dull RSG enforcement for the sake of it.

nik has also stated -repetitively- that the RSG should guide us but not force us to do something.

sebfact
Refer to your comment from 2 days ago in https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/release/407317-Vini-Reilly/history?diff=29&page=1
"Steven Morrissey is an ANV derived from Morrissey -please refer to the explicit example in RSG §2.5.2(example: ANV: Steven Morrisey = PAN: Morrissey) So, firstly, the Steven Morrissey Alias shouldn't exist anymore and, secondly, Steven Patrick is also an ANV of Morrissey."

Your explicit quotation and use of Morrissey."

princeofeville
I don't see how can "Steven Patrick is also an ANV of Morrissey."

Likely because you're caught in far too narrow RSG interpretation, and assuming that there is absolutely no knowledge about Steven Patrick Morrissey on this site. But this isn't any odd member from any odd orchestra where we have to ponder over who that Steven Patrick could be.

Anyway, despite the explicit example, everybody seems to be happy with two PAN. Probably because of the typo...

sebfact
Likely because you're caught in far too narrow RSG interpretation,

Then again you are contradicting yourself in all the ways possible, since you were the one that pull out the explicit example (example: ANV: Steven Morrissey = PAN: Morrissey) and referred to Steven Morrissey

princeofeville
on your own words "Steven Morrissey Alias shouldn't exist anymore"

This was your opinion in your comment in Morrissey since you were making a strong point based strictly on RSG §2.5.2

Everybody seems to be happy with two PAN. Steven Patrick is not needed as Alias.

sebfact
Everybody seems to be happy with two PAN. Steven Patrick is not needed as Alias.

Then you agree that both PANs https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/release/407317-Vini-Reilly/history?diff=29&page=1 stating:

"Steven Morrissey is an ANV derived from Morrissey -please refer to the explicit example in RSG §2.5.2 So, firstly, the Steven Morrissey Alias shouldn't exist anymore and, secondly, Steven Patrick is also an ANV of Morrissey."