A Guideline specific to 8-track would clear up a lot of confusion.

I have been recently submitting a few 8-tracks I have found, and tried to find a consensus on the forums as to what would be the proper way to list tracks. What I found was half a dozen threads reaching several conclusions, some saying that they should be listed by program, some conclude it should be by "side" number, and some saying the traditional (A1, A2,B1...) is best. After conversing with "fishbulb" we realized that many people were getting confused by 8-tracks not having "sides" in the literal sense, and were coming up with vastly different solutions to the perceived hole in the Guidelines. Adding a line in section 12 (Tracklisting) of the Guidelines would solve this issue. Fishbulb and I concluded that tracks should be listed in the traditional manner ([url=http://https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/Andy-Williams-Youve-Got-A-Friend/release/8666890]Example[/url]), but once again a line specifically clarifying 8-track tracklisting would eliminate a lot of competing standards on the database.

When you say traditional, you mean letter for "track" (in the 8-track meaning) and number for song?

I believe there was a "ruling" by staff to use A, B, C, D but not everyone liked it.

marcuj
When you say traditional, you mean letter for "track" (in the 8-track meaning) and number for song?

Precisely, Program 1 song 1 would be A1.

velove
I believe there was a "ruling" by staff to use A, B, C, D but not everyone liked it.

I this ruling also and it was suggested then that a line about 8-tracks should be included in the tracklist guidelines to avoid confusion. Right now they're all over the road, A1, 1-1, headings with tracks underneath, Roman numerals, hieroglyphics...
On a related topic, I find many 8-track submissions (your example included) that have information carried over copy to draft that is not on the release RSG §10.7.3. Especially frustrating is seeing durations carried over which are almost certainly different on the 8-track version.

velove
I believe there was a "ruling" by staff to use A, B, C, D

I recall this as well.

rikroc
On a related topic, I find many 8-track submissions that have information carried over copy to draft that is not on the release...

Yup. I see this a lot with older cassettes too, which often had little or nothing regarding credits and info.

brunorepublic
acraphaeI believe there was a "ruling" by staff to use A, B, C, D

I recall this as well.

I know there was a "ruling", but the issue is that it was never added to the guidelines. As a result, there are still competing standards since the ruling is hard to find.

Aerochrome
a line specifically clarifying 8-track tracklisting would eliminate a lot of competing standards

+1
There are thousands of 8-track releases not in the database, this is needed.

velove
I believe there was a "ruling" by staff to use A, B, C, D but not everyone liked it.

This should be in the guidelines. Makes the most sense and falls in line with vinyl, cassette etc.

I have an 8 track player but no 8 tracks; and just one lonely 8 track sub :( James Brown - Everybody's Doin' The Hustle & Dead On The Double Bump

trailoff
There are thousands of 8-track releases not in the database, this is needed.

+1. Let's do something about it.

Was it me who said something about 8-track track positions? A/B/C/D kinda works, but really 1-1, 2-1,etc might be more appropriate.

Using A, B, C, D ect.. would be consistent with RSG §12.2.7. 1-1,1-2, 2-1 ect.. is used for multiple discs according to RSG §12.2.9

I propose to amend RSG §12.2.7 from:
For side identification, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language.
To:
For side / program identification, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language.

And add to RSG §12.2.9:
• With programs (for example 8-track cartridge and 4-track cartridge);
A1, A2…, B1, B2… C1, C2...

Aerochrome
I know there was a "ruling", but the issue is that it was never added to the guidelines. As a result, there are still competing standards since the ruling is hard to find.

Here is the staff ruling

nik
The Beatles - Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band is straightforward (A1, A2, A3... B1, B2... C1, C2... D1....)

What problem are we trying to solve by making it more complicated than that?

Index tracks are totally wrong.

Headings are also incorrect going by the guidelines:

12.13.4. Index Tracks and Headings should not be used for denoting generic side, track position, or separate media data (for example, 'Side A', 'CD1' etc), track numbering is used for this.

If we want to capture the standard "Program 1" type wording, I suppose we could add track positions like:

Program 1-1
Program 1-2
Program 1-3
Program 1-4
Program 2-1
Program 2-2
etc...

But that may go against 12.2.7. "For side identification, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language", if we consider 'Program' to be analogous to 'Side'.

I'd keep it simple.

trailoff
Here is the staff ruling

Ah, swell. Works for me.

trailoff
I propose to amend RSG §12.2.7 from:
For side identification, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language.
To:
For side / program identification, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language.

And add to RSG §12.2.9:
• With programs (for example 8-track cartridge and 4-track cartridge);
A1, A2…, B1, B2… C1, C2...

I'm okay with this in concept, but I am weary of using "program" alone as it could be misinterpreted. Maybe something like "multi-program cartridges" just to keep it more format-specific. Unless there's also crossover with other formats that might qualify here?

We could use:
For side identification, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two, Program 1, Program 2 etc, including variations in any language.

Diognes_The_Fox
Unless there's also crossover with other formats that might qualify here?

I have seen some cassette tapes (Chér* - Cher for example) and cassette tape players (I have a Paso RG2 dual autoreverse cassette player with a "program" button similar to 8-track players) that referred to the sides as programs. And I have a foggy recollection of seeing some records referring to sides as programs as well. Sometimes the content on a release is referred to as programming in liner notes or elsewhere.

trailoff
I propose to amend RSG §12.2.7 from:
For side identification, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language.
To:
For side / program identification, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language.

And add to RSG §12.2.9:
• With programs (for example 8-track cartridge and 4-track cartridge);
A1, A2…, B1, B2… C1, C2...

+1

I'm into that.

Any objections / suggestions?

Diognes_The_Fox
I'm into that.

Any objections / suggestions?

Would appreciate input from other ( coopzilla) who posted in this thread to help move forward.

As a relatively new member myself I found this hole in the guidelines coupled with all the different ways others have interpreted track positioning very confusing when I started submitting 8-track cartridges. I then searched the forum for answers and found several threads debating the subject and they all agree something should be done then kinda peter out and fall silent. We owe it to future to finally include this in the guidelines and end the confusion.

Since I have been entering 8-tracks (and I have quite a few more to enter) I have used A1, A2, A3 etc. I think that works best. It is consistent with identifying the sides of a cassette tape

Dave

trailoff
Using A, B, C, D ect.. would be consistent with RSG §12.2.7. 1-1,1-2, 2-1 ect.. is used for multiple discs according to RSG §12.2.9

I propose to amend RSG §12.2.7 from:
For side identification, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language.
To:
For side / program identification, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language.

And add to RSG §12.2.9:
• With programs (for example 8-track cartridge and 4-track cartridge);
A1, A2…, B1, B2… C1, C2...

+1
This is how I've been adding them all along.

velove
I believe there was a "ruling" by staff to use A, B, C, D but not everyone liked it.

I'd like to see that formalized as a Guideline as well.

another thread: https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/693064?page=1#7257711

trailoff
I propose to amend RSG §12.2.7 from:
For side identification, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language.
To:
For side / program identification, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language.

And add to RSG §12.2.9:
• With programs (for example 8-track cartridge and 4-track cartridge);
A1, A2…, B1, B2… C1, C2...

I'm going to go with this. Any last minute objections?

None from me

Diognes_The_Fox
I'm going to go with this.

+1

Diognes_The_Fox
I'm going to go with this.

+1

O.K.: no headers (even if this would be the accurate variant) and no Index tracks

Diognes_The_Fox
last minute

sometimes tracklists are titled "Programme" or "Track" do this new RSG consider "The positions from the release are preferred" (from RSG §12.2.2.)?

T1A1 Title 1
T1A2 Title 2 (Beg.)
T2B1 Title 2 (Concl.)
...
...

P1A1 Title 1
P1A2 Title 2 (Beg.)
P2B1 Title 2 (Concl.)

and where belong the durations?

sometimes they are given for all tracks on one programme

index was useful for durations and in the notes is a little bit wrong, you may look before/after:
https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/release/7289135-Controversy/history?diff=8

whatever will decided: this are 10'000 8-track submissiond to review... alone under the first patch here:
https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/search/?format_exact=8-Track+Cartridge
you may find all the multifaceted methods how to enter the 8-tracks

and i fear a NMaC voting orgy that hits many innocent s - innocent because the rule is new and all previous threads leads to somewhere - so it's luck on what random thread the submitter followed (the opinion of the day)

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
and i fear a NMaC voting orgy that hits many innocent s - innocent because the rule is new and all previous threads leads to somewhere - so it's luck on what random thread the submitter followed (the opinion of the day)

usually there are no votes on changed due to guideline updates, so that shouldn't be a concern. They can get updated whenever someone touches them. And especially this will make new subs uniform (in theory)

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
sometimes tracklists are titled "Programme" or "Track" do this new RSG consider "The positions from the release are preferred" (from RSG §12.2.2.)?

Yes, the full text of RSG §12.2.2 says "or using Discogs standard positions (see below)" referring to RSG §12.2.9

trailoff
And add to RSG §12.2.9:
• With programs (for example 8-track cartridge and 4-track cartridge);
A1, A2…, B1, B2… C1, C2...

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
and where belong the durations?

Release notes
Van Halen - Women And Children First for example

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
index was useful for durations and in the notes is a little bit wrong, you may look before/after:
https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/release/7289135-Controversy/history?diff=8

whatever will decided: this are 10'000 8-track submissiond to review... alone under the first patch here:
https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/search/?format_exact=8-Track+Cartridge
you may find all the multifaceted methods how to enter the 8-tracks

This illustrates the need for this

OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
and i fear a NMaC voting orgy that hits many innocent s -

A mass should be proposed in the forum

Diognes_The_Fox
I'm okay with this in concept, but I am weary of using "program" alone as it could be misinterpreted. Maybe something like "multi-program cartridges" just to keep it more format-specific.

I agree that "Program" could be confusing if applied to other formats, such as laserdiscs, video cassettes or DVDs, which might also list program content that isn't specific to a side, or portion of a tape. "Multi-program cartridges" sounds much better to me.

instead of:
RSG §12.2.7 For side / program identification, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language.

Using :
"For side identification and program identification on multi-program cartridges such as 8-tracks, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language."
For Diognes_The_Fox.
Thoughts?

Works for me

Sidebar: We only use the "Stereo" tag if there is a Mono version. Currently there doesn't appear to be a Mono version in the MR, so you should remove the tag. :)

trailoff
"For side identification and program identification on multi-program cartridges such as 8-tracks, please use A, B etc in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc, including variations in any language."

Pull the trigger

rikroc
Pull the trigger

https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/356624?page=1#7258541

https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/356624?page=1#7258541

Looks good. Thanks.

https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/356624?page=1#7258541

thank you

• did i understand the new guideline correct? (also the issue with the durations in the notes?)
• https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/release/7289135-Controversy/history?diff=9 [PDQR: correct]
• https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/release/6012930-Prince/history?diff=6 [PDQR: correct]
• https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/release/7289180-Dirty-Mind/history?diff=7 [PDQR: correct]