"J-Rock Music" description in Database... is all wrong.

I know the definition of J-Rock on Discogs is taken from wikipedia's page about Japanese Rock, but it is all wrong nevertheless, especially as "J-Rock" and "Japanese Rock" aren't even necessarily interchangeable... depends on what you mean by J-Rock.

The current description of J-Rock on Discogs says:

Japanese rock (Japanese: 日本のロック, Hepburn: Nihon no Rokku), sometimes abbreviated to J-rock (ジェイ・ロック, Jei Rokku), is rock music from Japan. Influenced by American and British rock of the 1960s, the first rock bands in Japan performed what is called Group Sounds, with lyrics almost exclusively in English. Folk rock band Happy End in the early 1970s are credited as the first to sing rock music in the Japanese language. Punk rock bands Boøwy and The Blue Hearts and hard rock/heavy metal groups X Japan and B'z led Japanese rock in the late 1980s and early 1990s by achieving major mainstream success.

However "J-Rock" can be interpreted in two ways:

It can be, as the description currently says, "rock music from Japan", but there are several problems with this:

Why do we even need a separate Style for this? (And not for each and every other country that has its own rock music scene?) Because if we go with this description, it isn't like J-Pop which emerged in the '90s to describe the mainstream pop music in Japan and while being influenced by Western styles at the time, it had a distinctive sound even back then and evolved in its own way since. It is just rock music from Japan and even the description doesn't state how the sound is different from Western acts... it is just garage rock, folk rock, hard rock, punk and so on. (And it doesn't mean bands in these styles did not have their own Japan-specific sound... for example, there was the whole Burning Spirits scene / sound in the '80s, which even influenced several Western acts, but still, the bands that were part of it still go under hardcore punk and crust and it is perfectly fine that way.)

But even if this is what we mean by J-Rock, the desciption is wrong saying "the first rock bands in Japan performed what is called Group Sounds", because rockabilly and eleki (eleki was the local take on surf rock) acts of the late '50s / early '60s predate the whole Group Sound movement, which was the scene influenced by The Beatles and in general, beat and garage rock bands from the UK and US. Actually GS is sometimes used retroactively to include eleki as well, but either way, Discogs' entry on Group Sounds definitely contradics the one on J-Rock: "Predating J-Rock, Group Sounds is generally a blend of Kayōkyoku, Garage Rock, and Beat music. sung in either English or Japanese. GS was founded around 1963 - 64, at the start of Beatlemania, and exploded into popularity in 1966, following the Beatles performance at the Budokan Arena."

However there is another possible use of J-Rock, which is to describe the distinctive pop rock / hard rock sound that emerged around the late '80s / early '90s, with bands like Boowy and Buck-Tick, then was further developed in the '90s by all those acts (like L’Arc-en-Ciel, Luna Sea, GLAY and so on) coming to the mainstream from the visual kei scene, toning down their sound in the process. And then the term was subsequently used to describe acts like One OK Rock and all the bands that have that typical "anime rock" sound, like Radwimps or Asian Kung-Fu Generation. If used this way, it is much closer to the way we use J-Pop, as it describes a very distinctively Japanese sound, that emerged there and evolved in its own way.

So, any thoughts on this? While the current entry and description is definitly wrong, not even making clear why it exists in the first place, I am not sure exactly how it should be changed. (I will also post a link to this thread in the Japanese group, so some people more familiar with the acts involved can the discussion.)

The style description part of discogs was abandened by discogs some time ago and can’t be edited

Silvermo
The style description part of discogs was abandened by discogs some time ago and can’t be edited

Wow, that's... weird. I mean that's a pretty vital part of the site and should be the base for all submissions as a guideline when adding styles...

Case
Wow, that's... weird.

it is.

Considering the "styles" here are 50% completely FUBAR, that the genre wiki section is abandoned and at least half wrong on any given definition... yeah, that's about par.

The whole Geren/Style system needs to be either dumped or reworked by a musicologist and not... whatever happened here.

Silvermo
The style description part of discogs was abandened by discogs some time ago and can’t be edited

LOL what. That is absurd. This site is just held together with spit and string.

This issue has been ed to the devs:
Diognes_The_Fox When will it be possible to edit style descriptions?

cellularsmoke
reworked by a musicologist

Strong agree. I'm doing my okayest with what I inherited & the tools I have at my disposal. A seriously researched and well thought out replacement for the whole system would potentially do wonders. Absolutely no insight though as to when genre/style is up for review, though.

soulvibes88
When will it be possible to edit style descriptions?

Eventually, I hope. This is also a part of the reason I've been hesitant to add new styles. Without setting definitions, it turns into a free for all. (Being the sole gatekeeper is another part, the fear of unleashing chaos from a poorly thought out decision does keep me up at night.)

If an updated definition can be agreed on, I think I can get those updated. Honestly, though, I am not 100% sure what that process looks like as I do not if it's been done since reference-ogs was unfortunately depreciated.

Anything "J" related in of Japanese music (J-Pop/J-Rock/J-Funk et al) is 90s. I've never seen any primary source using those pre 90s. J-Rock for sure was never used in the GS era 65-70.

Diognes_The_Fox - Ouch, that sounds bad. I never knew this part of Discogs is in such a chaotic state. But actually I think the current Genre/Styles system is not that bad at all, but as said, the descriptions definitely need to be reviewed by experts of the given genres. But then it will not be happening anytime soon I suppose? :)
But if I understand correctly, if we come up with a better description for J-Rock here, there is a chance of it being replaced at some point in the future?

this Kamen Rider soundtrack from 1980.

Showapop
Anything "J" related in of Japanese music (J-Pop/J-Rock/J-Funk et al) is 90s. I've never seen any primary source using those pre 90s. J-Rock for sure was never used in the GS era 65-70.

J-Rock was a direct development in the 1970s as Japanese bands adapted heavy metal trappings. There was a huge surge of early 80s J-Rock as the DeathRock movement in LA traded heavily with the Japanese Rock movement (X-Japan is still one of the premiere J-Rock bands of all time as part of the Visual Kei movement). But yes, it was post-GS Era music. I probably wouldn't apply J-Rock to anything pre-1975...

J-Pop is definitely a post-bubble development and music term, after City Pop declined in the late 1980s. Nothing before 1990 could possibly be J-Pop.

Case
think the current Genre/Styles system is not that bad at all

There's definitely some improvements I'd like to make, such as being able to set minimum dates on certain styles, linking sub-styles with their parent styles, untangling Folk/World/Country, merging the two Bossa Novas, eliminating 'R&B/Swing'...

Getting definitions more under control likely to be a good starting place. If there's new definitions for this or any other styles that are generally agreeable, I should be able to make some progress.

Case
But if I understand correctly, if we come up with a better description for J-Rock here, there is a chance of it being replaced at some point in the future?

Yeah!

You could open up an entire sub forum to get definitions and time lines group sourced... it'd be a total nightmare but probably come out with some good info.

cellularsmoke
ShowapopAnything "J" related in of Japanese music (J-Pop/J-Rock/J-Funk et al) is 90s. I've never seen any primary source using those pre 90s. J-Rock for sure was never used in the GS era 65-70.

J-Rock was a direct development in the 1970s as Japanese bands adapted heavy metal trappings. There was a huge surge of early 80s J-Rock as the DeathRock movement in LA traded heavily with the Japanese Rock movement (X-Japan is still one of the premiere J-Rock bands of all time as part of the Visual Kei movement). But yes, it was post-GS Era music. I probably wouldn't apply J-Rock to anything pre-1975...

J-Pop is definitely a post-bubble development and music term, after City Pop declined in the late 1980s. Nothing before 1990 could possibly be J-Pop.

Can you find me a primary source from the 70s or 80s where the term J-Rock is being used like an obi, sleeve notes, Oricon magazine or period article? I've never managed to find one. Until then using the term J-Rock Is like using the term Classic Rock, it didn't exist until years afterwards and actually not used at the time.

Case BTW I agree with you a 100% that many of the Japanese genre descriptions need to be updated and corrected or all together missing [Idol, Mood Kayo et al.]

Thank you for this post for calling it out for an update.

Case
as the description currently says, "rock music from Japan", but there are several problems with this:

Why do we even need a separate Style for this? (And not for each and every other country that has its own rock music scene?)

That's what I've been thinking reading that description years ago. Rock with japanese lyrics - how's that a separate style? But figured it's part of the course taken here - endlessly splitting into smaller, smaller and smaller particles, each seemingly as important as the ones before. Eventually every artist and recording will have the right to it's own style, or be an amalgam or at least 10 of 'em.
As far as style exemplars go - just an hour ago I've learned that https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/style/easy%20listening is 1969-73 Carpenters, 1979 Hair OST and Frank Sinatra.

https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/style/easy%20listening is 1969-73 Carpenters, 1979 Hair OST and Frank Sinatra.

Frank Sinatra was the original East Listening Jazz though, "Jazz with Strings" was an early descriptor. The origins of Easy Listening go back to the 1940s. The modern Radio Format has morphed with the times though.

cellularsmoke
Frank Sinatra was the original East Listening Jazz though

Wasn't that pop? On the other hand, an orchestral recording of those Sinatra tunes.. And neither of the 3 examples are simply "Jazz with Strings".

amad65
Wasn't that pop?

Pop Music, as a distinct form of popular music didn't come about until the 1950s. Easy Listening develops in the 1940s as a subset of Jazz. "Jazz with Strings" is simply an early descriptor, as the larger, and often louder, horn section was replaced with a string section. It wasn't simply Orchestral Recordings, as Orchestras would have been more in the realm of classical styles.

Sinatra was on the forefront of Easy Listening, along with others like Frankie Carle, or Dinah Shore.
It was undoubtedly popular music of the time, but not 'pop' music, as that really required the advent of Rock N Roll to gain true distinction and musicality.

Diognes_The_Fox
Casethink the current Genre/Styles system is not that bad at all

There's definitely some improvements I'd like to make, such as being able to set minimum dates on certain styles, linking sub-styles with their parent styles, untangling Folk/World/Country, merging the two Bossa Novas, eliminating 'R&B/Swing'...

Getting definitions more under control likely to be a good starting place. If there's new definitions for this or any other styles that are generally agreeable, I should be able to make some progress.

CaseBut if I understand correctly, if we come up with a better description for J-Rock here, there is a chance of it being replaced at some point in the future?

Yeah!

Sounds great, the minimum date in an especially good idea! And OK, we will try to come up with some agreement about the J-Rock (and Group Sounds) descriptions here, thanks!

Showapop
Can you find me a primary source from the 70s or 80s where the term J-Rock is being used like an obi, sleeve notes, Oricon magazine or period article? I've never managed to find one. Until then using the term J-Rock Is like using the term Classic Rock, it didn't exist until years afterwards and actually not used at the time.

(the question was not for me, but I will reply anyways)

I did some reading on the subject since yesterday and basically all sources I came across, including Japanese ones, agree that the term only made its first appearances in the very late '80s (so around the same time J-Pop was first used) and since then it is mainly used to describe the more-or-less mainstream Japanese rock sound. The term's origins seem to be uncertain, but one possible version is that it came from CD stores that mostly dealt with Western records and needed a header for the sections for Japanese rock releases. However it seems (based on the Japanese wiki on Japanese rock music), that when the term was catching on from around 1989 and became popular, it became a catch-all term and some authors eventually used it retroactively in books about Japanese rock history and applied it to all rock music in Japan since the late '50s.

So, these sources basically verified what I wrote in the first post, that the term can be used two separate ways, but as it wasn't actually in use until the late '80s, I think it should not be used to earlier releases. What is certain, based on my experience since around '99, when I became involved in Japanese music, that amongst Western fans of Japanese music, the term is used to describe the distinctively Japanese rock sound and is used as an umbrella term, that includes everything from mainstream hard rock and pop rock acts, those bands coming from the Visual Kei scene, the bands with the typical "anime rock" sound, the bands from the so-called "Loud Rock" scene sound and so on. But not used for those bands that clearly belong to a certain genre and made a name for themselves internationally within that specific scene, like Mono, Boris, Melt-Banana or Kikagaku Moyo.

Showapop
Case BTW I agree with you a 100% that many of the Japanese genre descriptions need to be updated and corrected or all together missing [Idol, Mood Kayo et al.]

Thank you for this post for calling it out for an update.

Yes, it would be nice to get those already in the database right and then, if possible at some point, add the missing ones too. It would be amazing if this post would actually lead to some changes. :)

cellularsmoke
amad65Wasn't that pop?

Pop Music, as a distinct form of popular music didn't come about until the 1950s. Easy Listening develops in the 1940s as a subset of Jazz.

Sinatra was on the forefront of Easy Listening, along with others like Frankie Carle, or Dinah Shore.
It was undoubtedly popular music of the time, but not 'pop' music, as that really required the advent of Rock N Roll to gain true distinction and musicality.

Ok, my first result from google.
https://books.google.com/books?id=nxEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT28&dq=frank+sinatra+billboard+reviews&sa=X&#v=onepage&q=frank%20sinatra%20billboard%20reviews&f=false
1945. As I've expected, his record is reviewed in the popular section. No mention of "easy listening" in the issue.

cellularsmoke
"Jazz with Strings" is simply an early descriptor, as the larger, and often louder, horn section was replaced with a string section. It wasn't simply Orchestral Recordings, as Orchestras would have been more in the realm of classical styles.

That's what I meant, not symphonic orchestras of course.

Case
The term's origins seem to be uncertain, but one possible version is that it came from CD stores that mostly dealt with Western records and needed a header for the sections for Japanese rock releases.

That's basically how J-Jazz was 'born'. I propose two styles: Domestic and Import, to be used according to the current location of the item or the owner.

amad65
1945. As I've expected, his record is reviewed in the popular section.

Yeah, it was the popular music of the time.

Pop Music - while Pop stands for popular - is not the same as popular music. Psychedelic Rock was an extremely popular form of music in the late 1960s, but it was not Pop Music. Rock And Roll was massively popular in the 1950s, but it was not Pop Music.

Pop Music has a distinct musicality that, while it has changed dramatically over the decades, is not just 'popular' music. Pop Music is popular, but it is not the only form of popular music.

Easy Listening was used as early as 1939 in the Napa Journal to describe the days popular music (in contrast to Big Band and Swing).

So yeah, a Sinatra record would be reviewed under popular music. It is not "Pop Music" as we have come to define that sub genre.

cellularsmoke
Yeah, it was the popular music of the time.

Neither me nor Billboard use it as an adjective, but as a genre name. Popular Music just got shortened to Pop Music and Pop. It was the Pop of its time.

cellularsmoke
Pop Music - while Pop stands for popular - is not the same as popular music.

But the etymology is clear - it was(?) THE popular music for the masses that other genres would be measured by. RNR and other forms were popular, but didn't had that percieved universal reach of 9 to 99 whole family entertainment.

cellularsmoke
Pop Music has a distinct musicality that, while it has changed dramatically over the decades, is not just 'popular' music.

It's one of the most formally conservative ones.

cellularsmoke
Pop Music is popular, but it is not the only form of popular music.

Of course. But it always aims for that middle ground.

cellularsmoke
Easy Listening was used as early as 1939 in the Napa Journal to describe the days popular music (in contrast to Big Band and Swing).

Maybe. But, at least in the above example, wasn't used to describe Sinatra.

cellularsmoke
So yeah, a Sinatra record would be reviewed under popular music. It is not "Pop Music" as we have come to define that sub genre.

So Sinatra wasn't the giant of Pop of his time? It was reviewed as Popular Music because, makes me think that apparently, already then, was viewed as such. The pop form was long set by then and happens to be one that strays very little from its formula.

Because there's a distinction between Popular Music and Pop Music as a genre.

Pop Music as a distinct Genre Vs Pop Music as "the popular music today" began in the 1950s.

Without that nearly every genre could have "Pop Music" added as a genre identifier. Be it 50s Doo Wop, 40s Easy Listening, 30s Swing, 20s Big Band, 60s Rock & Roll, 70s Disco, 80s New Wave, 90s Techno .... so unless you want to add Pop Music to each of those, you have to recognize there's a difference between "popular music" as a concept and "Pop Music" as a genre.

As J-Rock is the harder nut to crack, let's start with getting a description for Group Sounds first that everyone agrees with. How about this one? Any comments and suggestions? I tried to cover all aspects of the history and background of both the scene and the distinctive sound, while not going too much into details, to keep the description short.

"Group Sound is a Japanese music genre, that blends garage rock and beat music with some kayōkyoku elements. While there were already a couple of bands (including The Spiders and The Blue Comets) playing music influenced by the UK beat and US garage rock groups at that time, the GS movement exploded into popularity in 1966, when The Beatles played five shows at Tokyo's Budokan Arena. Around this time and during the following two years countless new bands formed, were embraced by major labels and the movement reached its peak in '67/'68. However by the end of the decade, the scene was almost completely gone, with most bands disbanding and some moving on to other genres, such as psychedelic rock.

GS bands very often covered songs by popular US and UK acts, singing them either in Japanese or with the original English lyrics, but most had original songs as well, many of which were written by professional songwriters commissioned by the records companies. These songs were often much closer to the Japanese popular music sound of the time, creating a fusion of that and the typical garage rock and beat sound. Besides The Spiders and The Blue Comets, important GS bands included The Tigers, The Mops, The Tempters, The Ox, The Carnabeats or The Golden Cups and some of these had a distinctive style on their own, also incorporating elements of blues rock and other genres. The origin of the name "Group Sounds" is debated, but the most commonly accepted version says that it was coined in an interview in 1965 by Takeshi Terauchi of The Blue Jeans.

While there were rockabilly and surf-rock (locally called "eleki") acts before, GS was the first rock movement to make a big impact on the Japanese music scene and to gain widespread mainstream success. While GS was basically gone for several decades, later, as part of the wider garage rock revival, several bands, such as Kinoco Hotel and The Psycrons appeared that were heavily influenced by the Group Sounds scene."

Double post.

Case Yeah that is well written and written with respect for the genre. I personally cite 1970 the end of the genre since many GS groups released their last records in 1970. 1966-1970 seems to be the years that GS was dominate.

Thanks! And yes, true, hmm, maybe it would be better this way?

"However by the early '70s..."

So, everyone is OK with this Group Sounds description?

"Group Sounds is a Japanese music genre, that blends garage rock and beat music with some kayōkyoku elements. While there were already a couple of bands (including The Spiders and The Blue Comets) playing music influenced by the UK beat and US garage rock groups at that time, the GS movement exploded into popularity in 1966, when The Beatles played five shows at Tokyo's Budokan Arena. Around this time and during the following two years countless new bands formed, were embraced by major labels and the movement reached its peak in '67/'68. However by the early '70s the scene was almost completely gone, with most bands disbanding and some moving on to other genres, such as psychedelic rock.

GS bands very often covered songs by popular US and UK acts, singing them either in Japanese or with the original English lyrics, but most had original songs as well, many of which were written by professional songwriters commissioned by the records companies. These songs were often much closer to the Japanese popular music sound of the time, creating a fusion of that and the typical garage rock and beat sound. Besides The Spiders and The Blue Comets, important GS bands included The Tigers, The Mops, The Tempters, The Ox, The Carnabeats or The Golden Cups and some of these had a distinctive style on their own, also incorporating elements of blues rock and other genres. The origin of the name "Group Sounds" is debated, but the most commonly accepted version says that it was coined in an interview in 1965 by Takeshi Terauchi of The Blue Jeans.

While there were rockabilly and surf-rock (locally called "eleki") acts before, GS was the first rock movement to make a big impact on the Japanese music scene and to gain widespread mainstream success. While GS was basically gone for several decades, later, as part of the wider garage rock revival, several bands, such as Kinoco Hotel and The Psycrons appeared that were heavily influenced by the Group Sounds scene."

Yes, I can stand behind that description.

J to the ROC. Can I get a rah-rah?