IMD (2) Lebanon is not a bootleg label

Hello Guys

We should consider removing the ban on IMD (2), as i tried to explain the in the thread that lead to banning it here, IMD (2) is an official printing and distribution company that was based in Beirut since the early 90's. It has licensed by many major labels, including Voix de L'orient, the latter would never collaborate with a bootleg or illegal distribution company. We can produce hundreds of tapes from Voix de l'orient and other major lables such as Relax-in, Badawist ... moreover, a bootleg company would never mess with such major labels and bootleg hundred of titles without getting sued. So, a re-consideration is in order.

Some other suggested adjustments to be done or discussed:

https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/label/231092-Relax-In )

a link to the thread that lead to banning it would be very useful.
i think it is possible to remove a ban, but if i am not mistaken, it is very difficult - and just a thread won't do. i think the appeal must be made to management.
the way to invite s is to place a single name following the equal sign and before the closing ] in [u=]

Brief topic from over 16 years ago:

https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/forum/thread/113014

Further comments made @ https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/label/69864-IMD-2/history#latest

moominmammaa
i think the appeal must be made to management.

Thanks, I believe it is worth it, as this was one of the first tape production companies here in the 90's after the war, with a wide distribution network over the Arabic Gulf Region. i have checked with the owner few days ago, he confirmed that it started here in Beirut, with worldwide distribution rights.

Honestly, I'm very dubious about this. I seriously doubt a cassette company in Beirut would be given the rights to create content by The Beatles, Cat Stevens, Cream, Eric Clapton, Roxy Music and countless more. Just one look at these says pirate.

It would take a lot more evidence than just some hearsay to convince me this was legit.

Opdiner
I seriously doubt a cassette company in Beirut would be given the rights to create content by The Beatles, Cat Stevens, Cream, Eric Clapton, Roxy Music and countless more. Just one look at these says pirate.

I couldn't agree more, so i ed the owner then, he reckons these titles were produced when he sold the company and was moved to Saudi Arabia for a while. That is when he decided to go into the CD distribution. i am not sure if a re-consideration of the Arabic titles to be moved into a new label IMD (number) ?

Oh right, I understand. So it’s the same label but some are legit and some are pirate. I’m not sure if we split it into two then, or, rather, cover it with a well worded profile.

clubandalos
We should consider removing the ban on IMD (2), as i tried to explain the in the thread that lead to banning it here, IMD (2) is an official printing and distribution company that was based in Beirut since the early 90's. It has licensed by many major labels, including Voix de L'orient, the latter would never collaborate with a bootleg or illegal distribution company. We can produce hundreds of tapes from Voix de l'orient and other major lables such as Relax-in, Badawist ... moreover, a bootleg company would never mess with such major labels and bootleg hundred of titles without getting sued. So, a re-consideration is in order.

This is completely false. IMD (2) is a label from Saudi Arabia operating since the 70s and stopped in the early 90s making counterfeits of western music releases claiming to be made in "Japan" to confuse consumers and copyright authorities. The label is blocked because EVERY release under it is unofficial, just like Foot Print from Malaysia, which has also been blocked. Whatever label you are talking about it likely not related to this IMD or js just false information. IMD cassettes have been distributed worldwide illegally, no rights, no copyrights, no permissions.

Here is two examples of possibly many labels I believe to have been used by or related to IMD to try to avoid trouble with the law: PMS (3)

Also, can anybody help identify the second label (Prefix: GP) on the cassette of Bob Marley And The Wailers* - Catch A Fire?

JaneDoe1971
This is completely false. IMD (2) is a label from Saudi Arabia operating since the 70s and stopped in the early 90s making counterfeits of western music releases claiming to be made in "Japan" to confuse consumers and copyright authorities.

We definitely have common ground there, so let me run it this way.
1- IMD (2) started in Beirut, printing and distributing for Major local labels (Voix de l'orient, Relax-in, Badawist to name the big ones)

2- later on, the owner decided to move away from Cassette tapes into cd distribution and sold the company /factory to a new owner in Saudi Arabia.
These two fact points are from the -then- owner /founder of IMD (2)

SO, not confirming, but presuming that the non-arabic titles were produced -unlicensed-, distributed and acquired by many people inside and around Saudi Arabia AFTER the company moved there.

I also don't mind leaving things where they are now regarding IMD (2) , as i have said all that i have.

Here is another label that looks like IMD trying to avoid trouble with the law that I found: QP (2)

It would be interesting to know what is written about IMD on https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/release/20273632-مايز-البياع-Hobbak-حبك-/image/SW1hZ2U6NjYwMDM3NjA= (in the box with the SACEM marking)

jweijde
وردة* = Warda - عايزة أحب / ومالي بس = Aiza Aheb / Ou Mali Bass is the only Arabic title supposedly from before the late 1980s. It has 1979 as release year which again could be incorrect because it was copied to draft

You can date an IMD release by looking at the cassette and the case. Earlier releases will have cases with a tiny embossed IMD logo and cassettes with paper labels, the earliest having a very psychedelic inspired art deco font for the A and B sides, later on, they used a generic font. Newer releases from the 80s have printed on labels on the cassettes and large hexagon logos on the cases. Unfortunately, the release you are refering to does not have images showing any of these things. If you want, I can photograph my earliest and latest IMD releases and link them for you, just if you are interested in seeing the progression and style of this label over time, since it's not well documented.

JaneDoe1971
If you want, I can photograph my earliest and latest IMD releases and link them for you, just if you are interested in seeing the progression and style of this label over time, since it's not well documented.

That would indeed be great and very helpful to see a documented evaluation of the label's logo design.

Thank you in advance for your input and time!

JaneDoe1971
You can date an IMD release by looking at the cassette and the case

How do you date them that way ? I mean, the releases don't mention anything about when they were released it seems. Using the release years on Discogs is problematic too. They are mostly copied to draft from other versions. What guarantee do we have that these are correct ?

JaneDoe1971
f you want, I can photograph my earliest and latest IMD releases and link them for you, just if you are interested in seeing the progression and style of this label over time, since it's not well documented.

That would definitely be interesting to see.

jweijde
How can you date them ?

You can tell earlier releases from later releases judging by the cassette shell and case logos. I have taken photographs to show the progression.

I am using discord to link these, so if something goes wrong, I am sorry, I am just trying to be helpful.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/990201622007259189/990202164527890482/20220625_112920.jpg (Earliest I own is a black shell cassette with paper labels, early style font for A and B sides)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/990201622007259189/990202176913702943/20220625_112120.jpg (Tiny IMD logo seen on the case, seems to have been used from the earliest releases until the late 70s)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/990201622007259189/990202202180182066/20220625_112848.jpg (Honeycomb style shell with different A and B side font, seems to have been used in the mid 70s)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/990201622007259189/990202212120690698/20220625_112338.jpg (Large circle IMD logo, seems to have been used in the late 70s/early 80s)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/990201622007259189/990202239090061332/20220625_112808.jpg (Printed on honeycomb shell, latest releases I have, seem to be from the 80s, they also have the highest quality inlays with the best print, compared to earlier releases, and are more glossy)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/990201622007259189/990202243447939132/20220625_112825.jpg (Honeycomb hexagon logo on case, latest cases I own, seems to be from the 80s)

I hope this shows the general progression. There are more tiny variations I have, like "Japan or not Japan" etc., I do not own any of the much later IMD releases from the 90s. While these do not give exact dates, they can be used to estimate a general time frame of releases.

JaneDoe1971
You can tell earlier releases from later releases judging by the cassette shell and case logos. I have taken photographs to show the progression.

Thanks for sharing these! How these changes can be linked to a certain decade / release year is unclear to me though.
All i see is that different types of casings are used. It doesn't tell me anything about when these items were supposedly issued.

jweijde
JaneDoe1971You can tell earlier releases from later releases judging by the cassette shell and case logos. I have taken photographs to show the progression.

Thanks for sharing these! How these changes can be linked to a certain decade / release year is unclear to me though.
All i see is that different types of casings are used. It doesn't tell me anything about when these items were supposedly issued.

It is based on the time where each release was relevant. The earliest was originally released in 1970, the IMD release for it would have been around that time, possibly a couple years later etc.
The quality of IMD releases increased as time went on, the earliest have really low quality paper labels and inlays, while the latest I own have on shell print and high quality, high resolution glossy inlays, it relates to when the official releases were made. Most bootleg labels released their illegal copies about 1-2 years after, if not in the same year, as the official releases. (See labels Concert and Foot Print)

I also felt like showing this https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/990201622007259189/990210381450469397/20220625_120212.jpg
Not eligible for the database, but it is fascinating that somebody has crafted their own bootleg of a bootleg.

JaneDoe1971
jweijdeHow can you date them ?

You can tell earlier releases from later releases judging by the cassette shell and case logos. I have taken photographs to show the progression.

I am using discord to link these, so if something goes wrong, I am sorry, I am just trying to be helpful.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/990201622007259189/990202164527890482/20220625_112920.jpg (Earliest I own is a black shell cassette with paper labels, early style font for A and B sides)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/990201622007259189/990202176913702943/20220625_112120.jpg (Tiny IMD logo seen on the case, seems to have been used from the earliest releases until the late 70s)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/990201622007259189/990202202180182066/20220625_112848.jpg (Honeycomb style shell with different A and B side font, seems to have been used in the mid 70s)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/990201622007259189/990202212120690698/20220625_112338.jpg (Large circle IMD logo, seems to have been used in the late 70s/early 80s)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/990201622007259189/990202239090061332/20220625_112808.jpg (Printed on honeycomb shell, latest releases I have, seem to be from the 80s, they also have the highest quality inlays with the best print, compared to earlier releases, and are more glossy)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/990201622007259189/990202243447939132/20220625_112825.jpg (Honeycomb hexagon logo on case, latest cases I own, seems to be from the 80s)

I hope this shows the general progression. There are more tiny variations I have, like "Japan or not Japan" etc., I do not own any of the much later IMD releases from the 90s. While these do not give exact dates, they can be used to estimate a general time frame of releases.

Awesome!

Thank you very much again for all your effort to photograph, post and explain about this.

I will link this post with your references in the submission history of IMD (2)

Cheers!

JaneDoe1971
It is based on the time where each release was relevant. The earliest was originally released in 1970, the IMD release for it would have been around that time, possibly a couple years later etc.

How so ? Take Francis Lai - Music From The Original Soundtrack Of The Paramount Picture / Love Story for example. Going by the the corresponding MR, the first official release was in 1970 and over time there has been quite a few reissues. Even up until the 2000s. Clearly this release stayed relevant for quite a long time. Can it really be said then that this tape must be from around 1970 or "possibly a couple years later" ? It's only a possibility. It can also be from the 1980s, 1990s or even the 2000s. Who knows ?
The quality increase of releases may have needed a much shorter timespan aswell, like a couple of years.

in another thread, JaneDoe1971 claimed that "IMD itself has been around since the early 1970s". in this thread, this changed to "since the 70s" which might be true, as in the very very late 70s.

what is certainly true is that the dates on these releases are very very wrong, as well as that the way JaneDoe1971 dates releases is also invalid.
i have not written a book or done extensive research on this topic, and i'm not about to do it for this post / this thread.
but there are many clues to the aforementioned which i will try to note.
a database (like discogs) is very useful to draw information, even if it has a lot of mistakes. here we go:

it is a well known fact that in the western (more developed in such things) world of america, (north)western europe and japan, cassette tapes started selling like crazy in the late 60s, moreso in the early 70s. other parts of the world caught on several years later.

of course there were cassettes and cassette players in those other parts of the world probably from the very first day, but they were very few and for the very few, available as imports. please take into that in order to have a real market + production you need every other joe schmoe buying the junk you're selling.

i will use discogs to check and compare two examples which i consider to be very good examples. Lebanon / Beirut, the jewel of the middle east and Egypt ... don't know something great to call Egypt, but it can be called great for very many things. a glorious history of centuries, large populations of cultured peoples, a hub for world travellers...

here's a discogs search for cassettes with Lebanon as country in the 70s:
https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/search/?q=&type=all&country_exact=Lebanon&format_exact=Cassette&decade=1970
and check those SILLY numbers. 1 in 1971 ... 7 in 1972
oops! محمد عبد الوهاب* = Mohamed Abdel Wahab - اللحن العذب = Best Loved Songs Of (volume 1) has a printed shell - OMG! it must've been Michael J. Fox and that special car of his from back to the future!
of the 7 from 1972 one at least has a printed shell as well. several others were made in Greece.
i'm hoping you get the points?
lots of junk info in discogs!
and more importantly, nothing was really going on there in of a market involving production and distribution of cassettes in the 70s.

and here's a search for Egypt https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/search/?q=&type=all&country_exact=Egypt&format_exact=Cassette&decade=1970
similarly silly numbers. let's move to the later part of the decade.
16 measly cassette releases in 1978.
here's a very cool example Unknown Artist - مسرحية مجنون ليلى. please check the pretty images.
here's another cool example عمار الشريعي - Music From The Songs Of Abdel Halim Hafez Played By Ammar El Sheriyi In His Own Style. aaah, made in greece. again, please check the pretty images.
nothing much going on here either.

dare i leave out saudi arabia? compare the labels on Neil Young - Harvest • Time Fades Away from "1972" to the aforementioned from Egypt of 1978. MAGIC!

please try to recall all of the above as we finally move to our beloved (for giving us so many bootlegs) IMD (2):

for starters, please check out this

-search by year, first noted in 72, second in 74 ... أم كلثوم* = Oum Kaltsoum* - أم كلثوم = Oum Kaltsoum ... another printed shell. of course there's more examples of magical and imaginational printed shells from the 70s, but i won't bore you with them.

let's have a look at the label's catalogue numbers:
bar exceptions, there seem to be several ways of numbering the releases:
a. plain numbers: 433 to 9172
b. numbers preceded by "l-" from 502 to 825
c. numbers preceded by "IMD" from 115 to 9165

let's focus on "c":
IMD-6321 supposedly from 1979
IMD-6370 supposedly from 1975
IMD-6376 supposedly from 1979
IMD 5879 supposedly from 1985

finally, the conclusions we draw:
while in egypt and lebanon there are less than 100 cassette releases during the decade of the 70s, a bootleg label from saudi arabia released many hundreds if not thousands, according to the cat. numbers of their releases.
at the same time, according to JaneDoe1971, many if not most of these people are too lazy / unimaginative to think of a unique name and make a unique logo for their label.
and now we see some others can't even assign consecutive numbers to their releases!
... but in 1972 they managed to make some awesome labels for that neil young album.
right.

JaneDoe1971
Also, can anybody help identify the second label (Prefix: GP) on the cassette of Bob Marley And The Wailers* - Catch A Fire?

I tried. didn't succeed. discogs search for such matters is not the best, but at least you have a logo to go on, and also the number 63 ... which means that there's probably more like this one.

I agree with lots of what you say, especially regarding JaneDoe’s edits. Often changing country without any explanation, adding dates based on personal preferences etc.
When making these type of edits some ing evidence to back up the edit is needed. Not just basing the edits on assumptions.

steve.fletcher
Often changing country without any explanation, adding dates based on personal preferences etc.

Examples of where I have done this, please?
Where is the relevance to edits I have made?
Can you actually please forget I exist already? You keep feeling the need to go after me and it's weird.

This thread is about a label, not about complaining about another (ie. me)

Hey, wait, how about you make a whole thread just to complain about me instead of coming in here to do it, since you're that obsessed.

JaneDoe1971

Examples of where I have done this, please?

You have on multiple submissions changed the country without any explanation, or ing evidence.

Joan Jett - The Hit List

And here you have changed or removed dates without explanation

R.E.M. - The Very Best Of R.E.M.

When you are going to make the same edit over a number of submissions, you should open a forum thread. Give an explanation and seek approval.

Now stop with the persecution complex. If you follow the guidelines then your edits will not be questioned.

RSG §14.1.2 If you want to do the same type of edit over many releases, post a message in the Database Forum stating your intentions. This will ensure your updates are acceptable before you do them.
RSG §14.1.3 Even if it seems obvious, always try to explain your update fully.

steve.fletcher
JaneDoe1971
Examples of where I have done this, please?

You have on multiple submissions changed the country without any explanation, or ing evidence.

Starship (2) - The Very Best Of Starship
Various - Country Love Songs 2
Cinderella (3) - Long Cold Winter
Metallica - ...And Justice For All
Scorpions - Love Songs | Slow Rock
Paul McCartney - Flowers In The Dirt
Peter Cetera - World Falling Down
Celine Dion* - Celine Dion
Toto - Past To Present 1977-1990
Ten Years After - About Time
Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
Various - Mega Dance Mix '93
Michael Jackson - The Best MJ Megamix
Various - Monster Disco '90 Part 3
Various - Golden Favorite Groups Vol. 5
Various - Golden Favorite Groups Vol. 3
Various - Evergreen Hits Part. 5
Various - Sixties - Non-Stop Megamix 2
Various - The Best Rhythm And Blues 2 (1962-1970)
Christy Moore - Unfinished Revolution
The Beatles - Best Slow
Muddy Waters - Chess Masters
Joan Jett - The Hit List

And here you have changed or removed dates without explanation

Duran Duran - Rio
Eagles - Greatest Hits
Merle Haggard & Leona Williams - Heart To Heart
Celine Dion* - Celine Dion
Michael Jackson - The Best MJ Megamix
Muddy Waters - Chess Masters
Joan Jett - The Hit List
R.E.M. - The Very Best Of R.E.M.

When you are going to make the same edit over a number of submissions, you should open a forum thread. Give an explanation and seek approval.

Now stop with the persecution complex. If you follow the guidelines then your edits will not be questioned.

RSG §14.1.2 If you want to do the same type of edit over many releases, post a message in the Database Forum stating your intentions. This will ensure your updates are acceptable before you do them.
RSG §14.1.3 Even if it seems obvious, always try to explain your update fully.

The countries were incorrect, please check the label profiles. The dates were removed because they either had no source or were from copy to draft. Any more complaints, bub?

You have gone through my profile to complain and I am supposed to think you aren't obsessed with me? Not to mention, you have come into a completely random thread to go off topic and complain about me, this sure looks like you are obsessed.

So for Gl Record it was you that changed the profile but again without any evidence.
where is the ing evidence for the 1988 date in the profile ?

steve.fletcher
So for Gl Record it was you that changed the profile but again without any evidence.
where is the ing evidence for the 1988 date in the profile ?

On the first of june, 1988, there was a ban on pirated cassette tapes introduced in Indonesia, forcing GL Record to start production in the UAE under Gamava groups. Also, I just added that info, because many submissions from the UAE had been listed as Indonesian, since the profile never mentioned that fact previously. https://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/31/business/run-on-tapes-in-indonesia.html

Also, Golden Lion Record

That link is behind a pay site.

When you make changes to profiles or edits, you are to supply ing evidence. Without giving any evidence and just making changes with no explanation, you risk receiving negative votes.
See RSG §14.1.3 Even if it seems obvious, always try to explain your update fully, using the Submission Notes.

Without evidence how is anyone to know where you obtained the information? Or is it factual and verifiable?

Ok there are other news reports that in 1988 Indonesia made counterfeit releases illegal. So your profile edit may be accurate, at least regarding the law change.

steve.fletcher
That link is behind a pay site.

Uh, what? It's completely free and accessible.

JaneDoe1971
steve.fletcherThat link is behind a pay site.

Uh, what? It's completely free and accessible.

I need to subscribe to read it as well. Maybe it's based on country?

Warepire
JaneDoe1971steve.fletcherThat link is behind a pay site.

Uh, what? It's completely free and accessible.

I need to subscribe to read it as well. Maybe it's based on country?

Well, it's basically just a 1988 news article discussing how Indonesia is the world's largest exporter of bootleg music and how the new copyright laws will cause companies with warehouses full of millions of cassettes to shut down, while also meaning the cost of music in Indonesia will be increased.

They released music by literally every popular band and artist in existence (and several not so popular too), and had layouts/designs similar to every other bootleg label from that time and area. Although Im sure they followed local laws at the time, there is 0% chance any of those releases were officially licensed and so in the eyes of Discogs they are unofficial releases. Otherwise, what are you suggesting exactly? That they just happened to have made license agreements with every single record company in the world? Please, try to think rationally here.

An article which describes how the bootleg shops were run in Saudi Arabia around 1988:

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20180312-saudi-arabias-bootleg-music-shops

electrophonic
An article which describes how the bootleg shops were run in Saudi Arabia around 1988:

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20180312-saudi-arabias-bootleg-music-shops

Awesome.

Ok, so what about IMD (2) ?

jweijde
Ok, so what about IMD (2) ?

not particularly clear about your question. i will surely start by removing some obviously bogus dates. as for the official / unofficial, i have not been presented with anything pointing to official.

jweijde
It would be interesting to know what is written about IMD on https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/release/20273632-مايز-البياع-Hobbak-حبك-/image/SW1hZ2U6NjYwMDM3NjA= (in the box with the SACEM marking)

P.O Box number, phone and fax numbers in Beirut, Lebanon

jweijde
There are numerous releases that are listed as releases from the 1970s that are very likely counterfeit.

i like your analysis, and agree with most of it. i think the factory has a sub-line of non-arabic titles (unlicensed) being distributed alongside the official licensed Arabic releases (Fairuz included), i guess this blows out the whole idea of this thread.
(Going through the remaining comments next)

jweijde
Ok, so what about IMD (2) ?

The label-while in Beirut- had produced for Arabic artists (Licensed) and some non-Arabic / international artists (Unlicensed). A big thank you all, also JaneDoe1971 for the tape images and thorough details, a pleasure knowing there are some pretty good analysis minds over here.

jweijde
Ok, so what about IMD (2) ?

moominmammaa
not particularly clear about your question.

It was mainly an attempt to get this thread back on track.

moominmammaa
i will surely start by removing some obviously bogus dates

I agree it's best that these are removed.

clubandalos
think the factory has a sub-line of non-Arabic titles (unlicensed) being distributed alongside the official licensed Arabic releases (Fairuz included)

That's a possibility indeed

jweijde
moominmammaa
i will surely start by removing some obviously bogus dates

I agree it's best that these are removed.

i made an attempt at starting to correct dates, but noticed that loads of the plain number cat #s like "433" and "2004" are wrong, so i've first started to correct those, to either "IMD xxx" or "IMD-xxx" which will give us a much clearer idea of how cat nos actually appear in the db. then, the dates can be corrected and or removed according to their numbering. i'm thinking we'll have a much clearer idea about when this label was actually started.

there are still some releases with plain numbers, but they lacked images for me to base any corrections. still, they are much fewer than before, and most likely wrong.

so, the first set of cat# to deal with is the "l-xxx", currently numbering from 502 to 835 (about 36 releases).
of those only 2 feature a date, both 1976.
original releases roughly date from 1967 to 1977, most from the middle of the decade.
most seem to have paper labels, which is fitting, but those do vary (some are white, others brownish, which seem like an older and less fancy design) ... but i didn't bother checking this factor very carefully.
i will not make a case according to catalogue numbering as the examples aren't that many.
still, i don't think those two tapes are from 76, and will remove those two dates as unsubstantiated.

compared to the previous, the IMD xxx and IMD-xxx cat nos number 429 to 9172 and are over 1000 submissions, which will give us a much better sample with which to attempt to date the releases and the company.

IMD 429 was originally a 1970 UK release. the next sub, IMD 438 is from a 1977 original release release as are 445 and 447.
IMD 450 is from a 1978 original release, as are 456, 478, 482, 483, 489, 497

already, with such little work, we have many clues:
a. releases with higher cat nos, surely not released before
b. taking into the aforementioned info, and the fact that original releases were released throughout the year 1978, some possibly in december? november? there's no way a bootleg could have been made in such short time.

an initial, rough estimate is that IMD (2) had no releases prior to 1979.
now more investigating to hopefully find more clues.

ps. i did not remove a couple 1977 and 1978 dates from the earlier releases, though i probably should, as they are probably false.

there's also one more thing this data tells us: i'm up to IMD 949, and they're still releasing stuff from 1977. It is in no way possible, that a new label did 900, or even 600 or even 300 or even 100 such releases in 1977 or 1978 or 1979 or all 3 of those years put together.

following all those "early" ones, the next release which features a date is IMD 1802. originally released in 1979, supposedly bootleged in 1979. yeah, right. the 1802nd release of a label that didn't exist is 77 or 78 ... and most likely did not exist in 1979 either.

electrophonic another really good way to date them is to learn when they starting manufacturing cassettes in singapore. and with regard to this, i very much doubt it was in 1979.

as i'm boggled with information and looking it up on so many releases, JaneDoe1971 can you tell me the earliest few made in singapore tapes you have or see listed in the db? time to add singapore to the game!

funnily enough, while having previously released tapes with printed shells (yes, i do take into consideration those might be reissues of previous editions with paper labels) IMD (2) was making bootlegs of 1977-79 releases up to their IMD 6000 cat# and counting after having made bootlegs of mid80s releases in their 5000 cat#s

ah, even found an example:
https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/release/8810116-Exile-Mixed-Emotions
and
https://www.discogs.sitioby.com/release/11031170-Exile-Mixed-Emotions

moominmammaa
when they starting manufacturing cassettes in singapore.

For what it's worth, I've found an article in Billboard Magazine in 1982 that reports on a raid of a cassette factory in Singapore that made pirate releases for markets in Greece, Africa and the Middle East under the IBM label. LIkely that's IBM (2).
Billboard of March 17th 1979 actually features an interview with someone who at the time ran a pirate label in Singapore and had been doing so "for the past 15 years". According to him it was "perfectly legal" and there were "a dozen big companies and 40 to 50 small-time manufacturers" doing so. He exported to Malaysia and the Middle East. The latter was "a big market" for them, exporting "30.000 cassettes a month".

There are plenty of articles in Billboard Magazine from roughly 1978 to the mid-1980s about piracy in Singapore, saying it was the largest exporter of counterfeit tapes in the world. In 1985 one article states that Saudi Arabia imported "about 40 million cassettes a year from Singapore and another 20 million from Indonesia". This makes me think that most of these counterfeit labels from Saudi Arabia actually originate from Singapore. There are also reports of these tapes ending up in Nigeria, Peru, and Norway.

jweijde
For what it's worth, I've found an article in Billboard Magazine in 1982 that reports

it's definitely worth knowing. i thought issues of billboard were archived and available to browse on the web ... ah, here is the issue you referenced https://books.google.gr/books?id=ISUEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=billboard+march+17+1979
but please reference specific issues and page #s!

jweijde
This makes me think that most of these counterfeit labels from Saudi Arabia actually originate from Singapore.

hmmm... i think were a bit far from asg ownership, nor that i think it matters. fact is, they were mostly distributed in SA (besides the fact that loads of foreigners worked there, it as it was airplane hub for people travelling from europe to the far east and vice versa) but of course available in any other place / shop that was willing to buy and resell.

jweijde
There are also reports of these tapes ending up in Nigeria, Peru, and Norway.

surely more countries can be added.

so, onto singapore!
supposedly, 1 tape released in 1968, manufactured by Chiang Huat Co. Pte. Ltd., Singapore. obviously i doubt the date, but is there any way to find out when this company existed?
supposedly, 1 tape released in 1970 by the same company with different name Chiang Huat Co. Pte. Ltd.
supposedly, 1 tape released in 1972, this duplicated by Maxell (which makes me think the previous dates are bogus and that aforementioned company did not exist until after 72)
supposedly 9 tapes in 73 ... only 4 in 1974 ... a few more in the following years, probably many with wrong dates, as they feature clear or near-clear shells, which was an extreme rarity or not yet in existence.

http://singapore-companies-directory.com/Company_Profiles/C49/chiang_huat.htm

no years mentioned

moominmammaa
but please reference specific issues and page #s!

I'll get back on that.

citadelofdarkness
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/986761403639693332/996508502304497755/s-l1600-2.jpg

This is marketed made in Lebanon on a lebanese label made by IMD
not singapore

What is the "C.B.A." logo on these cassettes about ?

jweijde
What is the "C.B.A." logo on these cassettes about ?

i've no idea, but i thought we had this issue sorted - if i wanna make a tape, but the only tape making plant is in new zealand, that doesn't make the country new zealand. it'd be greece instead, if that's where i were to market the tape. many middle eastern + ethiopian releases were initially made in greece, but that's not the country. then, bootlegs from middleastern releases were made in the far east. that does not make singapore or something else the intended market, though i am near certain that these releases were also sold in the far east as well.

moominmammaa
here is the issue you referenced https://books.google.gr/books?id=ISUEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=billboard+march+17+1979

Yes, that's the one.
The piece about Singapore is https://books.google.com/books?id=ISUEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT67&dq=singapore+cassettes+billboard&hl=en#v=onepage&q=singapore%20cassettes%20billboard&f=false
A few pages back (SA-10) there's an interview with a producer of these tapes.

JaneDoe1971
jweijdeHow can you date them ?

I am using discord to link these, so if something goes wrong, I am sorry, I am just trying to be helpful.

these discord links are now dead, should have linked to releases on discogs instead

I've added a note about the official/unofficial discrepancy to the label page IMD (2)

papitas
I've added a note about the official/unofficial discrepancy to the label page IMD (2)

They have partnered with major labels here in Lebanon, it is enough that they have collaborated with A.Chahine & Sons (Voix de l'orient) to produce their tapes for many years. We all agree that such a respected label among others would never partner with a bootleg print house, so i emphasize on your note to be correct, and logical.

I have boxes full of legitimate tapes with IMD (2) as manufacturer, selling them on our website and on eBay, Contributing and creating them here would be time consuming if this label (At least the Lebanese one) is still considered as unofficial.

I was planning to start a new thread with the heavyweight contributors on Discogs to legitimize IMD (2), maybe, create an IMD Lebanon label perhaps for "Voix de L'orient" releases? glad to see this thread is still moving.

I think the best solution would be for Discogs to unblock the label from the marketplace and only block those releases that are marked Unofficial.

Another option is to create IMD (11) for the official releases (or for the counterfeit ones) and move those releases there. The thing is though that it's probably still the same label, regardless of the legal status of the releases.

Not sure how effective Discogs intervention would be, and how precise. Don't feel like doing a lot of back & fourth communication.
But, eventually, when i find the time to start listing those tapes, as you suggested, i will have to create a new IMD Label, add description to differentiate the multiple IMD's that are there left and right.
Again, In an earlier post, i mentioned that IMD printed for many official labels as for [I=A. Chahine & Fils].
Also, they had heir own unofficial releases, selling them from under the table, cause no one would give a darn when war is all around (ended in 1990), if the tape is official or not, some good music potion is needed.
what do you guys suggest? through Discogs or a new IMD Label ?
Thanks!

jweijde
Another option is to create IMD (11) for the official releases

Why IMD(11) ? just asking cause I'll create soon IMD(8) label for the official releases of mainly "A. Chahine & Fils" , "Relax-in" and "Badawist" Labels only.
Any Help with editing the -soon to be created -label's description is appreciated.

@
jweijde

I guess i mentioned everyone, hope the code works this time :))

Not sure if I've said the same before, but if it is the same label, then it should not have two separate entries. It should have a single entry, with official releases marked as such, unofficial marked as such and everything explained in profile. I trust discogs can manage to fix this.

I have already created and IMD (11) and will be filled with official releases, but whatever is better, we can do it.

...but one label cannot have two placeholders. Best to move all releases and again make note in the profile.

Complicated and late in the game, but your contribution would be very much appreciated
kaynaky

clubandalos
I have already created and IMD (11) and will be filled with official releases, but whatever is better, we can do it.

moominmammaa
...but one label cannot have two placeholders. Best to move all releases and again make note in the profile.

No, a company can't have two sets of pages for the same entity, not even if it could separate Official releases from Unofficial releases.

You need to present your evidence to Discogs management via a request.

moominmammaa
Complicated and late in the game, but your contribution would be very much appreciated

Are there any facts at all presented here? I don't do beauty contest voting.

mr_mando
Are there any facts at all presented here? I don't do beauty contest voting.

not my thread, so why ask me? i just asked for the community's help, if you feel like reading what the other s have presented, you can judge for yourself and offer opinion(s) accordingly.

moominmammaa
i just asked for the community's help, if you feel like reading what the other s have presented

You asked me for help. I don't have much time for this, so I'm asking you: Are there any facts at all presented here?
If not, I can't help, sorry.

mr_mando
You asked me for help.

yes, you, indeed, as a contributing member of the community. semantics. if you don't have much time it'd save you some by simply ignoring.

mr_mando
Are there any facts at all presented here?

one man's facts are another man's fiction, so it would be for you to judge. it is surely about making submissions better, and more representative of their reality, if you're interested in this as i am.

* Ok, more like physical proofs:
i have boxes full of tapes manufactured by IMD Lebanon, they have partnered with major labels in the Middle East, such as La Reine, and النظائر in Kuwait, just to name a few.

* Logical Fact : Such respected international labels would never partner with a bootleg print house.

I rest my case.

Now, we can drop this, or we can go on with IMD (11) or merge this with IMD (2) or whatever the rules are, i have absolutely not an objection, but a decision and a heading please that we all agree upon.
Thank you all in advance.

Have a look at a my collection, a small part bu a good example
https://www.discogs.sitioby.com//clubandalos/collection?header=1

jweijde
I think the best solution would be for Discogs to unblock the label from the marketplace and only block those releases that are marked Unofficial.

Diognes_The_Fox can something be done about this ?

All of the releases on IMD (2) are blocked from the database, even though part of the catalog is official and should be allowed to be sold here.

Can this label be unblocked ? Or is it better to use another entry for the official releases ?

I switched from the label-wide block to individual release ones. Let me know if I missed any!

Diognes_The_Fox
I switched from the label-wide block to individual release ones. Let me know if I missed any!

Thanks!

moominmammaa now that the blockade has been lifted, what do you suggest the profile should be ?

GeneralPopulist, where do you base this information on ?
Unless some back-up is provided, this edit should be reverted in my opinion.